Natural Beekeeping International Forum

fdbka · Guest

I'll answer for the entrance half of your question.

What i look for is the following. Listed in no set order but I will check for each of these before I even think about lifting the roof off.
(I use deep national and a dartington hive)

Numbers of bee's flying in and out
Are they bring in pollen and if so what colour so i get an idea of what the pollen is from
Are there guard bees
Are there wasps
Is there any fighting
I look at the floor around the entrance to see if there is many dead bees or larvae or anything else other than a few bees who may of died in the hive. Also the colour banding as well of the dead bees to confirm if they are mine.
Looking for drones (if any)
Are they aggressive / defensive when I approach the hive
Listen for any differance in the hive hum

I think that covers most of what i look and listen for, if i've missed one or two other important ones I'm sure some one else will add to this list.

biobee · Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 12:16 am Post subject:

As above, and:

Does it smell right?
(A healthy hive in warm weather has a pleasant, honey-and-propolis smell from close up.)

Does it look right?
Am I seeing the expected amount of traffic, given the prevailing weather/blossom?
Are bees coming and going in an orderly fashion?
Are the arriving bees flying 'bottom-heavy', showing that they carry nectar?
Is anything being removed from the hive - e.g. dead bees, dead wasps, drone larvae, chalk brood?

Does it sound right?
Are there drones - how many?
When I tap the hive, is there a short 'roar' that quickly subsides? Or a longer, sustained sound that may indicate queenlessness?
At night, during the summer, is the hive humming with the sound of bee-powered air conditioning as they evaporate water from the nectar?

Garret · Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 12:20 am Post subject:

Watching the entrance starting at the beginning of spring in my area.
This is a hive that I would consider healthy and normal. Depending on the season and the timing of the colony, if I don't see this I would go in to see what was going on.

Mid Feb. on: Will start to see foraging depending on weather. I check the weight of the hives. If too light I feed. No need to go into hive.

April: I like to see good activity at the entrance with lots of pollen going in. I will feel the weight of the hive by lifting one end. If both are to my liking I'm happy! Population should be on the rise and may see some drones. I don't need to look inside other than to move the follower board.

May: I like to see drones at this time with a big increase in bee numbers. Hive should feel much heavier. All is well.
The last week of May a strong colony will be ready to swarm. At the entrance the hive is very busy and there may be bearding. Large population. This is when I will go right into the hive.
If I want to make increases this is when I make splits with natural capped swarm cells. To make a honey crop I will split the colony and recombine over 5 to 10 days. Will end up with a new queen.

After this I don't think there is much reason to go into the hive other than to make sure they have enough room. That would be just having a peek into the back of the hive.

August 15: Is the time to harvest and to make sure they pretty much are ready for winter. No need to go into the brood area.

Sept: Drones should be evicted some where around this time.
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bigbearomaha · Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:55 am Post subject:

thank you all for posting and they are all things that are interesting to note.

However, when you look for those things you say you are looking for, why are you looking for them? to what relevance do they have?

When you say "listening for a dull roar..." to what does that indicate?

see what I mean?

Garret · Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 3:20 pm Post subject:

I think what is learnt over time becomes second nature. It really takes spending time just sitting and watching the entrance throughout the seasons and trying to understand how to relate what is going on inside to what you see, smell and hear from the outside.
Concerning the sound of a dull roar that subsides quickly after tapping the hive, this would indicate all is well. If the roar continued and increased in volume after tapping this could indicate that there is a problem. Maybe queenless. If no sound is heard are there any bees alive.
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bigbearomaha · Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 3:33 pm Post subject:

Garret · Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:01 pm Post subject:

There are many aspects of watching the entrance that are hard to explain without actually being right there. This is where a good mentor comes in very handy to explain while at the entrance.
I know what you are saying and it would be helpful if we had a guide to refer to when we are at the entrance to at least have some sort of idea what we are witnessing. I think because of all the variables to what could be going on inside the hives and what is being seen outside at any given time the best we can do is have a very basic guide to help us along. The rest is still left up to each individual to interpret the situation.
I guess what I'm saying is it's not as simple as if you see, smell or hear this, this is what is going on inside. There are too many levels.
Although a basic guide would still be nice to have as a beginner.
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bigbearomaha · Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:32 pm Post subject:

Garret · Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 12:22 am Post subject:

Big Bear,
I think a person could write a whole book on this topic. I don't think its been done.
Short of that, a chart with rows and columns with intersecting descriptions of what you should or shouldn't be seeing would probably be the easiest to put together.
You could use this with a description of what you should see in a healthy hive at different times of the year that is progressing as expected. Used as a starting point.
I don't know. Could be something to play around with to see what it looks like.
Maybe Phil would want to put something like this in his next book revision.
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Gareth · Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 9:59 am Post subject:

As Garret says, a lot of this is second nature. The experienced beek sees, hears and smells things that the novice doesn't notice because, in simple terms, they are already overwhelmed by the experience, so their sensory input gets filtered down to the minimum. I recall being shown things by experienced mentors when I started out and I used to think 'Wow, I hadn't noticed that, but now you point it out it's obvious'.

So having an experienced mentor who is good at voicing what they experience (not the silent type!) can be a great help, even if they are only able to help you occasionally. Failing that, as Garret says, just spend time looking and listening by the hive. Gradually your senses will pick up more and more. You don't even need to be consciously questioning, just passively observe; the questions will come later when you are reflecting on what you have experienced. Over time you'll be amazed at how your observational skills get tuned up as the overload of experience fades away (a bit like learning to drive on a busy highway).

My hunch is that the second nature aspect means that any 'list' that is written will always be a pale reflection of the reality and still leave folk wondering. There really is nothing to beat the actual experience and, over time, you'll start to connect the observations with the happenings. And, believe me, that process does not end. Smile

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Gareth

[url=http//simplebees.wordpress.com]http://simplebees.wordpress.com[/url]

bigbearomaha · Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 12:40 pm Post subject:

Thanks for the comments, I don't want to confuse the issue, while I am always here to learn all I can, It is not me necessarily I am talking about. And your post only further illustrates the futility of seeing " just observe the entrance" types of comments targeted to new beekeepers.

What you refer to as "second nature" really is only a comfortability in associating what you see with what is happening where you can't see it. Which, as has been said, primarily comes with the experience of doing it.

The mentor thing, from what I hear is only so so and not a guarantee of anything. As there are "good" beekeepers and 'not so good" beekeepers, there are good mentors, not so good mentors and many people in areas who can find no mentor at all.

In which case, people strive to self educate as much as possible, getting perhaps 'the next best thing' to a live mentor by frequenting online forums.

All of us online here are potential 'virtual' mentors and when idle comments such as " Just observe the entrance" slip out ( and I am not picking on any one person here, this happens on every bee forum I can see) so by making statements such as that, I think it behooves us to take that information into detail for the 'mentor-less' or those with mentors who really aren't helping them.

Just my two cent in the constant search for bee truth. Wink

Big Bear

fdbka · Guest

Would someone with a hive with an observation window like to post what they are looking for in a little detail as requested by

bigbearomaha · Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:31 pm Post subject:

That was a rhetorical question. As if to ask the same thing in regard to the entrance.

I think I am going to work on such a list on observations, both at the entrance and the window.

Big Bear

jeezlebarf · Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 5:28 pm Post subject:

I've found that the main use of the window is to see when to add a new bar or two because they have filled space with comb. The only other use was to show people what the nest looks like. It is always to the entrance first that I go and that list above from fdbka, Phil and Garrett is about as comprehensive a guide as i've seen. I'm copying it to my 'best of forum' file. I'm sure they'll let you keep and print it out for new, or any, beeks.
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Norm · Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 5:55 pm Post subject:

There is a whole book devoted to the subject called at the hive entrance by H. Storch it was translated from the German version which was called Am Flugloch

Norm · Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:57 pm Post subject:

Opening paragraph of the above book reads:-

bigbearomaha · Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:31 pm Post subject:

Thank you Norm. I have put that book on top of my 'need to read' list.

Big Bear

bigbearomaha · Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:15 pm Post subject:

OK, I nominate Norm for 'coolest Apiarist in the neighborhood".

That book is almost EXACTLY what I was talking about. Even in the manner it is laid out and presented.

Talk about saving me a lot of work.

Thank you Norm. Your my favorite Norm of all time, and that even includes the Norm from Cheers. heh heh.

Big Bear

Norm · Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:26 pm Post subject:

Garret · Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:40 am Post subject:

Anyone who would like to down load the book can at this site. You will need to down load a BitTorrent program first. Which you can get here.
http://www.bittorrent.com/btusers/download

http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4697591/At_the_Hive_Entrance.pdf

Thanks Norm, for bring this to our attention!
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stehen · Guest

Excellent thread.
Much appreciated.

adamziegler · Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 6:13 pm Post subject:

Garret... could you (or someone) seed this file for a bit? Thank you!

Edit: Thanks for the seed!

DavesBees · Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 2:45 pm Post subject:

bigbearomaha · Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:04 pm Post subject:

I will be seeding this at night, between 8 pm and 6 am CST

Big Bear

DavesBees · Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:03 am Post subject:

mpilting · Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:39 pm Post subject:

If no one is seeding, it can also be found here: http://bbe-tech.com/bees/?page_id=18
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All existence is a harmonious balance. ~ Lao Tzu

trekmate · Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:51 pm Post subject:

mpilting · Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 7:27 pm Post subject:

The best part of the whole book is the cover. I wanna be that guy! Cool

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All existence is a harmonious balance. ~ Lao Tzu

bigbearomaha · Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 7:35 pm Post subject:

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