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Thebigflyin
Guard Bee
Joined: 29 Jun 2015
Posts: 60
Location: Essex
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ingo50
Scout Bee
Joined: 30 May 2014
Posts: 311
Location: Newport, Gwent, Wales, UK
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 Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Thanks for posting, I have signed, could all UK forum members please also do so and pass on to your friends and fellow beeks please. |
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madasafish
Silver Bee
Joined: 29 Apr 2009
Posts: 882
Location: Stoke On Trent
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| Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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Another anti pesticide petition.
As all pesticides kill bees, I hope you are all eating cabbages with caterpillar droppings and holes, semi eaten sprouts and lettuce with slugs in it.
If not, you are supporting the use of pesticides which kill bees (amongst other things).
Of course you don't nor do the creators of such petitions. They are designed to appeal who people who don't think of the consequences. |
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ingo50
Scout Bee
Joined: 30 May 2014
Posts: 311
Location: Newport, Gwent, Wales, UK
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| Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Some of us do grow our own untreated vegetables and support organic traders, and yes we are eating foods produced by farmers using pesticides, but we have some choice where to spend our money on groceries. Our government opposed the time limited ban on certain neonics when voted on by the EU a while ago. They appear to take some notice of internet petitions, more than any personal correspondence off individuals. Positive suggestions welcome. |
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Wintering
New Bee
Joined: 09 May 2016
Posts: 9
Location: Sonoma County, CA
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| Posted: Mon May 09, 2016 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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| madasafish wrote: | Another anti pesticide petition.
As all pesticides kill bees, I hope you are all eating cabbages with caterpillar droppings and holes, semi eaten sprouts and lettuce with slugs in it.
If not, you are supporting the use of pesticides which kill bees (amongst other things).
Of course you don't nor do the creators of such petitions. They are designed to appeal who people who don't think of the consequences. |
The argument put forth here is a classic either/or logical fallacy. The options are not:
a) eat/support pesticide treated food
b) eat cabbage, sprouts, etc.
Nearly all food can be produced without bee-damaging pesticides, however, it is unlikely that this could occur on the current scale. Thus the argument is not so black and white as you have painted, and such a portrayal does disservice to those who seek genuine and lasting change. |
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madasafish
Silver Bee
Joined: 29 Apr 2009
Posts: 882
Location: Stoke On Trent
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| Posted: Tue May 10, 2016 5:45 am Post subject: |
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| Wintering wrote: | | madasafish wrote: | Another anti pesticide petition.
As all pesticides kill bees, I hope you are all eating cabbages with caterpillar droppings and holes, semi eaten sprouts and lettuce with slugs in it.
If not, you are supporting the use of pesticides which kill bees (amongst other things).
Of course you don't nor do the creators of such petitions. They are designed to appeal who people who don't think of the consequences. |
The argument put forth here is a classic either/or logical fallacy. The options are not:
a) eat/support pesticide treated food
b) eat cabbage, sprouts, etc.
Nearly all food can be produced without bee-damaging pesticides, however, it is unlikely that this could occur on the current scale. Thus the argument is not so black and white as you have painted, and such a portrayal does disservice to those who seek genuine and lasting change. |
So you eat sprouts with aphids in?
The argument IS black or white unless you want 20% of teh world to die of hunger and mono culture on every strip of land.
You cannot advocate no pesticides and then give no solution to teh resulting issues..and be credible,, No Government will listen to you as you appear a crank. Governments are responsible for people eating. |
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Wintering
New Bee
Joined: 09 May 2016
Posts: 9
Location: Sonoma County, CA
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| Posted: Tue May 10, 2016 7:32 am Post subject: |
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| Wintering wrote: | | madasafish wrote: | Another anti pesticide petition.
As all pesticides kill bees, I hope you are all eating cabbages with caterpillar droppings and holes, semi eaten sprouts and lettuce with slugs in it.
If not, you are supporting the use of pesticides which kill bees (amongst other things).
Of course you don't nor do the creators of such petitions. They are designed to appeal who people who don't think of the consequences. |
The argument put forth here is a classic either/or logical fallacy. The options are not:
a) eat/support pesticide treated food
b) eat cabbage, sprouts, etc.
Nearly all food can be produced without bee-damaging pesticides, however, it is unlikely that this could occur on the current scale. Thus the argument is not so black and white as you have painted, and such a portrayal does disservice to those who seek genuine and lasting change. |
| madasafish wrote: |
So you eat sprouts with aphids in?
The argument IS black or white unless you want 20% of teh world to die of hunger and mono culture on every strip of land. |
I didn't seem to make myself clear. A real-world "black and white" argument is a logical fallacy as it posits only two outcomes from a situation that is necessarily more complex.
| madasafish wrote: |
You cannot advocate no pesticides and then give no solution to teh resulting issues..and be credible,, No Government will listen to you as you appear a crank. Governments are responsible for people eating. |
I think I understand what you're saying here but you are not being very clear. It is true that governments (and large corporations) will have difficulty abandoning pesticides, as chemical treatment is a foundational of modern industrial agriculture. This said, the call to abandon pesticides is not meant to all-of-a-sudden have everyone stop using pesticides, such an event is near impossible. It is a call to make voices heard and therefore better represent the community in the political sphere. When employed hand-in-hand with sustainable small scale farming, it can be one effective tool among many.
So it seems as though you are either misrepresenting the argument against pesticides, or are ignorant of the modern socio-political arena. In either case, the situation is in no form black and white. |
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biobee
Site Admin
Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 1059
Location: UK, England, S. Devon
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| Posted: Wed May 11, 2016 8:26 am Post subject: |
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This discussion needs more nuance.
'Pesticides' include: insecticides; herbicides; fungicides and miticides (among others).
Clearly, insecticides kill bees, as bees are insects. Systemic insecticides (such as neonicotinoids ) are particularly pernicious, due to their toxicity at extremely low concentrations (a few parts per billion) and the inability of bees to detect them.
Herbicides (such as glyphosate, aka Roundup) kill plants and while they may have some toxicity to bees, they are generally not considered a major threat (although recent research demonstrates toxicity to humans).
Fungicides are generally aerially sprayed and while they may not be specifically toxic to bees, they fo disrupt the yeasts and other organisms involved in the microbiology of the hive, including the fermentation if bee bread. There is research that suggests that they multiply the lethal and sub-lethal effects of neonicotinoids.
Miticides are mostly used on animals to deal with pests such as red spider mite. They are used by some beekeepers to kill Varroa, although they are likely to affect bees in higher doses. |
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